Intermission 3, Minus Years 2, Page 6
Dec07
And thus the 3rd Intermission, and second part of Minus Years, comes to an end (for now). I may put a few more bonus comics on Patreon at some point for it before I put up the vote for the next series or thing.
I mean, eventually we have to show the part of Minus Years that explains why they actually got along. Rumor has it, they were actually sort of fond of each other once.
Monday will be back to the “current” story.
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And this is why he has Query.
Why isn’t Query with them, again?
Because Query is a frail hover ball that would make a good target and therefore easily get reduced to scrap.
Quips like that show how little thought went into that “comfort,” Kepler.
Peter is, objectively, a donkey’s arse. 😉
hey, just wanted to say how much I love this comic. Just caught up to live, loved the whole thing. Thumbs up.
Hey, thanks! Great to hear you enjoyed it.
Unless I very much miss my guess, the smashed device there is our clearest shot yet of a Dimensional Gate. The only other time we saw something like this was very long time ago when Tyler was raiding the location Peter sent to him.
I don’t really know what that deals us, as it looks about like I would expect them to, but it confirms that they are transfer pads and not doorways (if that is what it actually is).
Speculation time!
This might be a big clue as to why the bridge point (read: the thing that actually started everything) is such a technically complex problem. With a transfer pad, magic could automatically update everything in it to having the Eidos Data consistent with the target point in a single transition. To have a “stable” portal, you would have to be able to “enter” the other dimension. For example, if your foot crosses the barrier, how does it know not to send it to the other dimension before the rest of you enters?
I look forward to seeing how it works, but some ideas. It could scan the target to identify “all the parts”, and then somehow specifically target the the Eidos Form. Alternatively (and what I expect due to the name), it could actually connect the dimensions, meaning that there is a literal “bridge”. This would be really interesting to see, as this could tell us a lot more about the whole nature of dimensions if that is possible.
Now the other question is, did Kor’s World have one big enough to actually bring through the airship? Or did they bring through the parts and then build it here.
Interesting… 🙂
so we know basically how the transferring between dimensions works, basically you change one part of the edos data of whatever you are transferring from the coordinates of “this world” to the coordinates of “that world”. There is a limit to how big of a change you can make at a time that we know, and there is likely bound by the same other laws of magic (specifically I am referring to the fact that it is harder to modify the edos data of a living being than inanimate objects).
It therefore seems as though the main point of the transfer pads are either to overcome the resistance living beings have to being modified or to ensure that the entire “system” transfers at exactly the same time. Likely both are issues. The second of these is quite important because otherwise if your arm was transferred before the rest of you than it would disappear from this dimension and be in the other one, and all the blood flowing from your shoulder would have no where to go (within this dimension, that is). Imagine that same problem across the transferees torso or brain (etc.) and you can see why that is a problem.
The bridge-point is interesting though, because about all we know about it is that it allows for continuous contact between different dimensions and is seemingly large enough that a single bridge-point can be used to launch a planetary scale war. We also know that they can be created and destroyed. We may not know how things transfer but there are some clues.
For instance the fact that there is a specific “spot” for the edos data of “universe” means that the universe itself recognizes that the universes are different. It isn’t like “pool water” and “bath water” are both “water” just in different places, instead it is more like “one is water and the other is jello”. The different universes may be similar but reality will never treat them as interchangeable. Therfore the bridge-point cannot be so simple as something like a wormhole because even if something went into a wormhole the edos data it has would make it come out in the same universe because the “universe number” of the edos data had not changed. Perhaps the edos data changes during transit if the wormhole explanation is used? There are ways around this problem.
It is tempting to assume that it works like some sort of gate where anything that passes through immediately has the data changed, and this would solve the blood problem because blood flowing past the barrier would change to the appropriate dimension. The problem with this is that not just blood would have to flow across the barrier, but information as well. Electrical signals from the nervous system would have to be able to pass as well or else passing through the barrier would immediately stop all brain functions across the line of the barrier, possibly for good depending on how quickly your head and heart move through the barrier as well as other factors. This can be bypassed if information (such as magnetism) has edos data, as this would allow it to be converted back and forth as it passes through the barrier. The problem with this is that it SEVERELY complicates matters because instead of transferring a bunch of matter (and changing that data) transference would require transferring the matter and most all of what is associated with it (gravity, magnetism, light, heat, possibly others) and the data would have to be changed for each of those fields of influence. The easiest way of dealing with this issue would be to use soft science, as anything else eventually gets down to the unfortunate implications of what happens when the atoms themselves that make up a body are disassociated with parts of themselves. A more difficult way would be to make the “gate” thicker so that the transfer doesn’t happen all at once but in incremental scales that are small enough to allow the information to pass despite the data difference? Think of it like turning an AM radio to a spot near a station but not on it, you can still hear it just not necessarily as clearly. This would require buffer room between dimensions but would also allow for “ghostly” movement just outside of the dimension itself. This is still problematic (how much can you weaken the strong and weak forces before the atoms start to misbehave, and by misbehave I mean dissipate into their component parts and information) but at least it is hard-er… Or perhaps all change through edos data is on the “energy” scale, such that changing momentium is closer to affecting gravity or other basic forces than what we actually experience of it? This doesn’t seem to fit the depictions or the descriptions, but (if you assume a completely different system of physics) could work.
Perhaps the bridge-point is less of a traditional “gate” and more something else. It is shown as lightning bolts connecting two worlds in the original explanation, perhaps that is a more literal depiction wherein an instability literally strikes an object (like a lightning bolt) and immediately changes the edos data. If the instability was basically permanent and the strikes could be controlled or predicted than that would be just as good as a traditional gate and would serve the same purpose.
If we look at the picture the planets don’t seem to mirror each other. That could simply be due to their orientation (their continents could be identical but we were at the wrong angle to see) or it could be artwork… or there is the possibility that the platens are completely different. There is the possibility even that they are in the same universe but far distant galaxies or even different universes on the same plane of existence just VERY far separated. This is unlikely as it brings a whole host of other problems such as that changing the edos data to travel between “dimensions”/”extreme locations” would most likely leave your transferree floating out in space. Even so this would explain why nobody can figure out how to teleport by modifying edos data, because the method has already been found but nobody can get good enough to transfer as they desire. The easiest way to get around this problem would be to say that something about the planet or the people acts as a magnet, allowing transfers that would otherwise leave a person floating in space instead near solid ground (possibly even the same solid ground each time if the forces remain relatively constant).
I’m sure there are other ways to deal with it, such as the “physics works different” explanation. I look forward to seeing what explanation is used.
Some parts of this speculation are disturbingly prophetic.
All I can confirm is… well, if it was easy, they’d already have done it 😉
Sadly I can guess what you are going to say, but exactly what parts were so prophetic? 😉
In the manner of prophecy, things must not be clear! 🙂
Muwa Ha-Ha Ha-Ha Ha!
My latest prophecy came true!
What’s interesting is that the ability to translate the information from your brain already exists, at least to some extent, given that we’ve seen Miko get backed up by Mium. Moreover, this likely even holds across architectures, presuming Mium is not biological.
Given the level of data streaming that would require, there’s probably some ability for compression without losing the “essential information” of the brain. It’s slightly simpler for backing up Miko than for a data transfer, as when one swaps Miko “back” one can make use of the existing data from the brain/body to map back, meaning you can sacrifice data at the price of a more complicated re-merging algorithm. However, nevertheless, the essential detail (or at least enough to run a close enough approximation to get a continuous experience) *is* copied, because Miko can run on Mium’s servers.
If one extends this idea, one could plausibly even argue that the bridgepoint is modifying your bodily architecture if the new planet is mildly different in physics to ensure continuous experience. After all, your body is going to require some significant modifications if different forces are even slightly different [to say nothing of fine-tuning problems for life in general], so there could be some “translation” involved. I suspect that it’s not too much and that (livable) universes just have basically the same laws of physics, though – I think, as with most travelling between universes, there’s a certain amount of handwaiving involved that leads to the assumption that they have essentially the same physics. [Disclaimer: I could go a lot more technical thinking about that, but I don’t think it would be a useful line of thought, so I’m terminating that there.]
Like you, I look forward to the details. One of the things I appreciate about this comic is that those things are usually well worked out.
Did Miko actually get backed up? Because I thought that MIUM only offered but she turned him down. Either way we know that MIUM was running on Miko’s “hardware” (brain/tech integrated with her brain) so that does prove SOME level of interchangeability between the two systems, definitely of the “software” (conscientiousness) running on each but likely of the “hardware” as well. Even so the whole result of the shinogi project’s failure was that something about “people” is more complex then just the structure and the basic information running on it, which likely conclusively confirmed the concept of the “edos key” required for magic. Even if she had been backed up, that doesn’t mean that the restoration process would work.
Also, as a random aside: Am I the only one who sees the concept of “edos key” and finds it suspiciously close to the common idea of the “soul”?
That said, I do like the idea of the bridge-point/transfer pads modifying the creature for the physics of the new dimension. Mainly because it just makes more sense that the different dimensions would have slightly different physics or else what is the real difference between movement along that dimension beyond what we see in the first three dimensions (hight, width, depth)? Nothing really. But if there is no difference than why isn’t it included with the first three? And why is “time” so completely different in how it “acts”? Why should we assume other dimensions are exactly the same? We know that the pads change some part of the edos data to transfer to other dimensions, but we have no concrete proof that it is the only thing they change.
There is also the possibility that once you put matter into the other dimension the way physics themselves work automatically affects whatever changes are needed, but that has the unfortunate effect of basically proving some sort of bypass to entropy; either intelligent design (stuff is DESIGNED for whatever physics, and in this case to self modify for it) or else unavoidable design (the nature of the universe means that coalescence of energy/quarks/newts/etc automatically form into matter).
Of course that ends up entering the sticky wicket of the interaction between science/physics and philosophy. Most scientists fervently deny the existence of a back and forth relationship between the understanding of each, claiming that it is or should be only a one way street (science informs philosophy, but philosophy/worldview theoretically never informs our understanding of science) but most people who commonly work with worldview call this a cop-out meant to pretend a level of unconcerned neutrality that no human can truly maintain. Considering PastUtopia’s background in philosophy I fully expect to hear more about this, or at least the character’s views on this.
PS: I also agree, it is very nice to see a writer who has taken the time to work things out.
Don’t know if you’ll see this as the new page is up, but did want to add a few thoughts.
No, I don’t think Miko actually got backed up per se. I don’t think she even declined, we were just seeing Mium’s thought process. I got the impression that he views it as ridiculous that humans don’t keep backups of themselves.
Now maybe he did back Miko up, but it was not confirmed. I just remember seeing the line “Consider backup?” or something as part of his logic train, next to the snarky comments about brains being important to humans, and the bullet being listed as “problem”.
What we do know is that Miko’s conscious was partially integrated into Mium’s overall hub, while staying discrete. From reading between the lines, Miko is actually fairly sold on this idea. This will, I think, be one of the most interesting story lines. Miko seems at best ambivalent to her meat puppet body, and we know from Mir that you can make the jump to a less-meat puppet body, but that is a whole host of philosophical ramifications (if you copy the brain process, is it still the same person?). Of course, I think that @PastUtopia’s answer to the transporter paradox is the Eidos key.
This ties back into the greater question, as a “person” in the comic is actually implied to by their Eidos data. But what happens when they jump to a different dimension? Clearly their mass is not left behind, nor does it convert to energy and dissipate (or there would be a huge explosion). Is the mass/energy actually being transferred between the dimensions?
I think that parts of this are potentially answered by the blue teleporting girl. She can teleport inside a dimension from a space to another space. This is essentially folding three dimensional space, does this mean she can actually go between dimensions? It does not seem that is implied, so “dimensions” are not clear cut as to what they are.
I think, based on the model, it is best to think of “dimensions” as “servers”. You can cast a spell to blink between two spacial coordinates on your server just by changing your location data in Eidos, and your representation in reality is updated to the new place. Jumping between servers is just another changed to Eidos data, but might require a new “data format” as you note so the Eidos data is read correctly to make your physical form.
There are so many questions though. Humans look identical in both dimensions. We know that Peter and company are not being translated to look like humans because we briefly saw the other dimension a few times, and things look the same. To me, this indicates there is more the a simple relation between the dimensions with humans in them. But then there are also the demons, which really look to be very monstrous Eidos forms that mask themselves as humans (unconfirmed, but that’s what it seems like so far).
I guess that is part of the appeal of the comic. It is not hard sci-fi, but at the same time, it’s something my brain can integrate with real physics. If someone showed up in our world with the ability to hack Eidos data to use magic, it wouldn’t break physics, it would answer a lot of questions. Maybe it is just the prevalence of computers and people forwarding the simulation theory, but it all seems fairly reasonable.
Of course, given how it turns out for the worlds we have seen, I think maybe we should pass on dimensional visitors.
This comic tends to instill only slightly less existentialism in me then Lurzgesagt videos.
I assumed that when travel happened the mass moved to the other dimension. We haven’t seen that process, so I don’t know if that displaces the air in the new dimention, replaces it, or something else such as requiring some sort of exchange. For the first that means that the act of coming into the new dimention would either cause the air to be directly absorbed into the body or pushed out of the way when the new body comes through. This is the most likely option, but mechanics of it are one of those “devil in the details” things. The second is less likely because that means changing the edos data of whatever is at the destination, and this and other problem are true of most of those third options.
I’m wondering about the teleporting girl too. We have really no idea about how her ability works. It could be space folding, or it could be something else. For instance nightcrawler from the X-men franchise has been confirmed to teleport by “hopping” into a nearby dimension and using that go through the intervening space. Another option is that it is more like the star trek form of transporting where the objects are taken apart at one point and then reformed at the other. Heck, it could even be that she is just creating some sort of perfect replica of herself at another place; so not a true teleportation but something that really really looks like it.
I do agree that physics and such seem to work essentially the same in each dimension. It does make me wonder if the only thing different about the dimentions is “location”, if the diffence is too small to be noticed or is unimportant to the story, or if there is a significant difference but that point just hasn’t been touched on yet.
Peter sounds more like an AI than Query does. He really doesn’t identify with people, does he. O.o
Arron did accuse Peter of building Query in order to figure out what other humans considered normal. Query almost certainly is better at modelling human emotions than Peter.
The question to be is why. Originally it seemed Peter was just a nerd who sucked at people, but I get the feeling there is more to it. Honestly I want to see more of Minus Years just to see if he ever starts interacting with Kally like a human to figure out why she puts up with him.
I’m not sure Arron’s words were an accusation, so much a statement of fact. Speculation as to why Peter needed query is the big question.
I think I remember seeing that they dated.
Which really begs the question, doesn’t it, as Peter is about as likable as cactus that’s on fire most of the time 😉